Sarah: I’m very excited to bring on Kris Gethin. I’m sure everybody will already know without an introduction. He is a bodybuilder, and the reason why we have him on biohacker extraordinaire. So welcome, Kris. It’s so nice to see you.
Kris: It’s nice to finally connect with you in person. We’ve been on the phone many times, but actually seeing you on Zoom is much better. Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the introduction.
Russ: Let me jump in. Kris, one of the questions we’d like to start off with is, what is your biohacking superpower?
Kris: My biohacking superpower? Well, I tell you what, if I had that superpower, I still probably wouldn’t be biohacking. But I’d say the thing for me is just mindfulness. I try to wait because, in today’s age, it’s very easy. We have this device with us 24/7, which has 13 drugs mainlining you 24/7. I think, I’ve allowed myself to bookend my day, so I don’t have the phone on for a good hour, at least in the morning and at least 2 hours in the evening. Just so
I just focus on being a lot more mindful, inviting positivity into my universe, starting my day with meditation, and, maybe, reading.
And I’m reading a lot of stoicism at the moment. So, I’ll take a quote and I’ll try to apply that quote, to my day. So, I don’t know if you want to call that a bio hacks or ancestral wisdom, but that’s what I’m trying to put into my day. And that’s just really helped with a lot of stress and anxiety. And, bringing the cortisol levels down, and hopefully the inflammatory responders as well.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s super cool. And so what kind of meditation do you do? Literally, is it reading a passage and then thinking about that? Or do you have an actual practice that you do?
Kris: My practice is usually in the ice bath. So, I jump in the ice bath every morning. I just think, that’s a perfect opportunity for me to clear my mind. I’m not thinking about emails; I’m not worrying about so much. When I’m in the ice bath, I just find that I’m extremely present. So, I do 25 minutes in a sauna. And then, followed this morning, I filled that up with an ice bath. And that’s usually when I’ll do my meditation. It’s not always like that. I’m very instinctive. Sometimes, I go out for a walk. It could be active meditation, or it could be in a sauna while I’m stretching. I do like to multitask. And, as Tim Gray, our mutual friend says, stack bio hacks!
Sarah: Yes, stack your hacks. I can see you’re stacking your hacks already. So, you’re doing your walking machine and the blue blocking glasses. Do you wear those glasses all the time? Or what’s your regime with those?
Kris: It all depends, I’ve actually... My wife has put this light here. She always puts this light-up if I’m on a podcast. It’s a little bit too harsh for me. So I’ll wear the blue light blockers, obviously. I’m on a computer with blue light blockers, but in my office and downstairs, here I have yellow bulbs, which is zero flickers from blue blocks. And then, upstairs we actually have the red. So it looks like a brothel from the outside. So, I don’t usually wear the blue blockers unless I am spending an extensive amount of time on the computer or if I’m at the gym, and that gym has harsh lighting, then I’ll generally wear it. Because you’re on a bench press or something like that, you’re looking directly up at it. And, I’m trying to... I know, my cortisol levels spiked anyway while I’m in the gym. I don’t need a spike anymore.
Sarah: Right. And, I am going through your rating. I mean, already, we haven’t even talked about your day. If you’ve got up, and you’ve done your sauna and your ice bath and your meditation, what does the rest of your day look like? Are you literally training all day? Because people have seen your Instagram, they know what you look like. Is it a case that you are training all day, every day? Or what does your day look like?
Kris: No. I weight train for 45 minutes, 4 to 5 times a week. What are my sessions? I run quite a few businesses, I will probably be homeless if I trained all day. Training is not my job. That’s my hobby. That’s what my passion has always been. But I use some form of cardio every single morning after I usually wake up. And then, immediately, I stretch and foam roll. And then, I go into my... I read.
So, I always try to exercise my brain before my body.
And then, I’ll usually do some form of cardio, it depends on the time if it’ll be outside or inside. Because it’s going to be dark. But I tried to get outside and either go for a run or mountain bike or road cycle, something along those lines. And then, I usually get straight into work, but I’m up at 4 am. So, I’m getting into my workday, usually around 7:30 or 8:00 in the morning. And then, I’ll actually go to the gym in the daytime, if possible. Because my schedule is all over the place. If it’s possible, I’ll usually go early in the afternoon, just to get my weight training in. And then, back to my workday, which is usually at the computer or I’m filming or doing a podcast or something like that. So, I like to move as well. So, I like to have some low-level activity within my day, just to keep the blood flow to the brain, to the body, keep sign over your fluid, moving to the joints. And we’re designed to move. And I grew up on a farm in Wales, you’re always on the move, you’re always moving. So, I think that should be a part of our heritage, which a lot of us are losing today.
Sarah: Yes, of course functional movement too.
Kris: You look at a lot of the Blue Zones, you see the manual activity that they do even after 100 years old. It’s very different, a lot of the westernized cultures. So, for instance I interviewed some people there, those centenarians, who don’t have a seat. They’re standing up and sitting down on the floor about 50 times a day. So that’s their functional movement. That’s their activity and weight training. On the other hand, a lot of people today are stuck to the remote control of Netflix and have an Amazon delivered to your door.
So, I think it’s very important that we take ourselves back a little bit.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s very interesting that people are promoting more and more this primal or ancestral knowledge. And it was something that was popular for a while. And then, the biohacking and more techie things came in. But now, I think people are starting to go back to that. I mean, what do you think is the biggest thing to come out of this situation we find ourselves in where people have their routines completely changed, and people have been in and not doing these things? What’s your takeaway from this last year of chaos?
Kris: I always say you have to control your environment and not get controlled by it. I had a conversation with my wife about it this morning, because she was talking about a friend of hers who is going to come and visit but then she doesn’t know whether she should visit because she wants to go overseas straight after that. People are just led by fear and they don’t go with flow. I was just in the UK recently. I wasn’t fearful that I would fail a COVID test or whatever it happens. You can’t control what is in front of you. You just got to invite the positivity into the universe. For instance, my great grandparents were in World War 1, well, I’m sure we didn’t have it that bad. Because we do have air conditioning, we do have homes, we do have TVs, we can speak to each other via zoom. We’ve got it pretty good. SO, a lot of people put themselves in a state of mind that’s just allowing the media to control and influence their actions. And you just can’t fall for it. We’re a lot smarter than that.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s refreshing to hear, Kris. Because I’ve been in that situation where a lot of people are coming at me with various contracted statements where I’ve been trying to help people out. But its definitely where you put your energy. That’s where that flows. So, what are you working on yourself right now? I know, you said, you’ve got a lot of businesses going on, I see that there’s a biohacking center coming in the UK and all these kinds of things. Maybe you can just tell us where you’re at right now.
Kris: We just opened a couple of more gyms in India, which is great. I’ve got a franchise over there. During the happening of the C word, a lot of gym franchises were closing down. And we’ve been in a very fortunate position where we haven’t looked at quantity, we’ve just looked at quality. So, we were able to actually open a couple of extra facilities. Because we had to close all the gyms down for a while, but we had to continue to pay our staff, which a lot of companies can’t do. So, we were lucky to be in a position to do that. And, yeah, as you said, we were about to open 2 clinics in London with my business partner, Jack. And that’s going to be called “Be Superhuman.” And these are going to be biohacking clinics where we’ll have obviously IV of hyperbaric oxygen chamber. We’re going to make sure that we have the very best hyperbaric oxygen chamber there. So, I am really looking forward to launching those 2 places or giving me an excuse to go back to the UK.
And other than that, I’m just continuing with my online training. So, I’m helping professional athletes and people off the streets. I’ve partnered with Like an Age as well, for pilot studies because my biological age is much younger than other people that they’ve tested from an athletic background, compared to my chronological age. So we’re doing a pilot study with my clients there for those. And I’m just working on a Mastermind course, at the moment because what has happened in the world. It has been a lot of personal trainers, or people within the fitness industry that have been reliant on a brick and mortar place or their employer. So, now we are launching and we were in the process of putting the finishing touches on our Mastermind course to help people create a form of independence with the platforms that we have online now. So, it doesn’t matter where they are in the world. They can have that independence and don’t feel so vulnerable.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s super cool. It’s really important. What we’re usually do in the podcast is that a challenge from our guests is that there’s something that we do over 7 days ourselves, Russ and I. And sometimes it’s difficult, and sometimes we do it easily. But I wonder if there’s something you could give us that would also be something that the audience could do, as an intro to what you’re saying is taking back some of the control and responsibility. And it can be whatever you like. But it would be just interesting to see what would you set as a task for people that are really just starting on this journey or the ones that have been doing it for a while. We have all range of people.
Kris: Sure! Well, we can stack a couple of bio hacks here, that’s free for everybody to do. And that is, I try to do this myself every day. So at my desk there, I do have an earthing mat. Because I am in Idaho, I get four seasons, I’m not always going to go outside in the snow myself on a daily basis.
But what people can do is go outside, take their shoes and socks and ground in a plank position.
So, they could do, let’s say, three sets of a plank. Okay, so they were lifting themselves at the same time.
And this is going to help with their core and their core stability, which a lot of people are lacking in.
Most of my clients, when I get into doing planks, they’re not as good as they should be for their strength of their primary movers. So, I’d say start off, do 3 sets, rest for a couple of minutes between each set of planks, and then time it. How long were you able to do? And see how much you beat it by the following day until you get to the day 7?
Sarah: That we haven’t really had anyone on talking about earthing actually. And it’s a cool topic, but what’s your understanding of how it’s working? And can you do it anywhere? Because my understanding is you have to be a bit choosy.
Kris: Yeah. Well, obviously, you want to try to do it on grass. You also want to find yourself a grassy patch and do that. You could obviously do it on natural stone. No, you can’t do it on fake turf or anything.
What you’re trying to do is absorb a lot of the negative ions from the earth, and remove yourself of a lot of the Wi Fi, EMF, the satellite signals that are penetrating us on a daily basis.
So that was the reason, and that is how I stumbled across it. Because I had issues with sleep. I just wasn’t getting a good night’s sleep whatsoever. I was diagnosed with mold toxicity as a contributing factor of that. However, it wasn’t until I was in Las Vegas some years ago, in 2016. I went to a music festival there inside the Speedway, I wasn’t doing drugs, I wasn’t drinking alcohol. But I came away from there with 3 or 4-day hangover, I felt absolutely terrible. And that’s somebody told me about being possibly electro sensitive. And I had Brian Hire come to the house who’s one of the world’s leading building biologists to check my home for dirty electricity. He had me sleep in one-man tent, it was a Faraday cage to help block out a lot of the EMFs. And I don’t know how I could have a placebo effect of this. But I tracked my sleep with an aura ring, and I had the best night’s sleep. And then, he was here in Boise for 2 nights. So, he asked if I wanted to sleep in it again the following night and I did. I had a phenomenal night sleep. So that’s when I really started mitigating the damages on EMF, and [unclear 18:07] being one of those practices.
Sarah: And so do you do other things? Do you turn your Wi Fi off? Do you use an Ethernet? How do you also mitigate against that? Because I think this is something that people don’t want to hear? what else do you do to mitigate against it?
Kris: Well, I was going to say it’s out of sight and out of mind. So, people don’t see it’s much like people didn’t see smoking as being bad for themselves. It’s a silent killer, isn’t it? So, it can be death of 1000 cuts, but there’s got to be some people that are a lot more electro sensitive than others. So when I slept that night, inside the Faraday cage, my wife didn’t really notice that much. But she didn’t feel that hangover that I did when we came from Vegas. So, everybody’s different, we have to respect that. But other things that I do. So, I have a defender shield case over my phone, I also have the lamb boxer shorts that are different pieces of clothing. I’m not going to wear that every day. But if I’m traveling, if I’m flying, I have a kill switch here for the Wi Fi. So I definitely don’t want to have Wi Fi. During the night the phone is usually on airplane mode whenever possible. I even have one of these defender shield cases here. I can show you for people that are viewing this, that goes underneath the laptop. So, if I’m traveling as well, I don’t want that on my lap. It will help block a lot of the EMFs or mitigate the EMFs that are coming from that. So, here’s a few little practices. I try not to go over the top with anything, to be honest with you. I’ll just do whatever I can to keep my head afloat.
Russ: I have. I mean, there’s a lot in there. I think there’s unraveling... We just spent time with someone talking about heavy metals in your system. I’m on the verge after doing this podcast now for a year, Kris, of having a complete panic attack that everything in this world is bad for me and coming up at me. Whether it’s bad light, it’s Wi Fi. it’s the satellites. It’s bad diet. It’s bad music. I mean, there’s a lot of shit going into our bodies, a lot of bad stuff going in?
Kris: Oh, yes! It is a good question. I guess you’ve got to see how and whatever affects you. I was diagnosed with Mold toxicity. So then, that was my priority to ensure that I’m looking into grains, food that like coffee, wine, things like that have mold spores, so I eliminate them. And then, when it comes to collating it out of my body, then there are different approaches that I take. It could be chronic hydrotherapy; it could be at home coffee enemas. I’m doing saunas on a daily basis because I’m trying to collect a lot of heavy metals as well, as you mentioned before. Because I do have some metal in my mouth that I’m going to go hopefully. When everything’s cleared, I’m going to travel to Germany to see a Doctor to remove a lot of this metal out of my mouth. But I’m taking binders, and I’m doing a sauna to try to get rid of a lot of this stuff. So, I guess, it’s different strokes for different folks.
I get my blood work done and obviously, with the hair follicle tests, I can tell how much heavy metal contaminants were in my system. So, that’s how I look at my detoxing protocol. And I’ll do the usual detoxes as well. I’ll have IV therapy. I’ll be going this Thursday, Glutathione, Vitamin C, A & D, etc.
Sarah: Where do you think you’ve got the mold from Kris in the first place? Do you have an idea?
Kris: Yeah. It was when I was living in India, I was living in an apartment there in Mumbai. And Mumbai is a very humid place. New York is very common for that as well. People get mold toxicity from all apartments in New York.
Sarah: Right. Yeah. England too. I should imagine. And Wales, possibly, all the places where there’s a lot of rain. It’s just interesting to hear. Because Russ said we’ve had a few guests, we had Andreas Breitfeld on. And he was talking very much about heavy metal. So it’s just interesting that people need to do that assessment first and find out what you’re working on. That needs to be the first thing that you do. So, what was your first thing, remind us again? How did you get that diagnosis that set you off on your way, so you knew what to do first?
Kris: I was dealing with a lot of inflammation in my body, not just from an internal perspective but my joints, my connective tissue, tendons, ligaments, that I thought just came from years of weight training. But when I really changed my protocol, my diet, collating, and detoxing, I got rid of everything. I got none of those issues I once had, all gone. However, my training never really changed. So that’s when I was sold and decided that I wanted to work at every single day if I wanted to live a better life.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s interesting. I wonder how many of us are carrying things around with us and putting it down to just the aging process?
Kris: Yeah, for sure. When I first had my biological age test... My biological age was actually older than my chronological age only by a couple of years. But the thing that
I’ve done since then, as I said, from the meditation from the IVs, I’ve had stem cells do NAD. Everything that I’ve been doing since then, has allowed me to reverse my biological age every single year that I have it tested.
Sarah: Yeah, I bet. Do you know what they’re testing, when they’re testing your age?
Kris: Yeah. Well, with telomeres. As we get older, obviously, they fray, they get shorter. And we got to do whatever we can to prevent that from shortening as quick or quicker than chronological age.
Sarah: Yeah. It would be good to have that tested. They do some of these tests before and after, I’m sure because then, you have something more concrete to work towards.
Kris: Yeah, I like quantifying a lot of things, whether it be calories, macros, sleep or heart rate variability. So that’s just one of those things that can be a wake-up call for a lot of clients. So that’s something that I do like to have clients do at the very beginning.
Sarah: Yes. We had Dr. Joe on to talk about quantified self last week, and it’s so crucial. Okay, just to end then, Chris, maybe you could tell us, if there is something that you’ve done one of these bio hacks that didn’t really work out to plan. I had one story of someone drinking parasites, and that turned out a disaster. Is there anything you’ve done that’s just been a total disaster?
Kris: I don’t think I have. I don’t really go off the deep end like a lot of biohackers. I haven’t put any chips in myself. And I did not have any types of iodine injected into my eyeball, so I can see at night time.
Russ: It sounds like you’ve considered that though!
Kris: I’ll eat my carrots instead. The most of the hook thing that I’ve done really is travel to Colombia for stem cells. But that was a huge success. So, there isn’t anything... It’s going to be difficult to quantify some. As I do. In my lounge, I do have a PEMF mats, it’s really hard to tell, quantify, and things like that. Because I have had a lot of injuries, a lot of bone breaks. And so I’ve done the PEMF. And I have healed a lot quicker than what the doctors suggest that I would. So, is it working? Maybe! I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Sarah: It’s Pulsed Electromagnetic Fields - PEMF for those who don’t know. And yes, you’re right. It’s one of those things. Almost like a red light therapy, where you intuitively think it’s having an effect but you need to do this quantification to find out what’s really going on.
Kris: Yeah, exactly. And the only thing, for instance, with a red light therapy I can look at my sleep data a little bit. It helps with a circadian rhythm. People say my skin looks right. So I’m like, maybe there’s something to that. So I do that on a daily basis too for just a good 10 or 15 minutes.
Sarah: Yes. Oh, well, that’s super cool. And tell us something about the stem cells really quickly. Because that is quite an outrageous thing to do. Where did you have that? Was that in your joints?
Kris: So, when I was competing in one of my Ironman events as I was preparing for it I was in New York to do some appearances. And I absolutely love Central Park. It doesn’t matter if I’m staying in New Jersey. I’ll get an Uber there. I’ll do a couple of laps around Central Park is just so energetic and vibrant. So, I can’t remember, I was 3 miles away from finishing my run and my knee inflamed. I got quite a high pain pressure. And I thought I’ll be okay, I’ll just carry on running. It wasn’t until I stopped. I realized, I was limping. And I was only 4 weeks away from one of my Ironman events. So, I thought, well, I’ve got 2 choices, either stop running and do the events or I just pull out the event. So, I preferred to actually just stop running leading up to the event. But I had to stop at every single aid station on the runway to ice my knee because it was just so bad. And I’d looked into stem cells prior to that. So, with a little bit of further research, over several months, I decided to go to Columbia. And I had in that knee but I thought, why, I’m going to have it anywhere where I know I have wear and tear coming up. So, I had them in golfers. I had them in my elbows. I had them in my knee. I had IV as well. And, about 6 months later... It took about 6 months to get the efficacy from it, 3 months afterwards. I was like, God, I just wasted my money coming in here.
Sarah: Yeah, I can imagine. It’s not cheap.
Kris: Yeah. Well, a lot cheaper than having it here in the US, for sure and much more efficacious from the sources that it comes from overseas. But about 6 months later, I really sat in and it was the best money I ever spent.
Sarah: It’s interesting to hear that. Yeah, I went to Mexico a couple of years ago, there were people there who were experts in that. And they had some brilliant testimonials. So, it’s a brilliant technique. Well, let us know what if there’s anything you want to promote, Kris? Tell us, where can people find you? Or if you’ve got events coming up or the name of your course.
Kris: Yes, speaking of events, or Mexico, I should say my next event, I forget the name of it. They can follow my socials. But I do have an appearance set in Mexico City at an expo there on November 20th. But if people want to contact me in regards to coaching, whether that be for business, mentorship, or whether it be for physical transformations, or anti-aging. I have been part of a pilot study. Then just go to my Instagram, which is Kris Gethin.
Sarah: Brilliant! And what we’ll do, basically, we will do the challenge. We will do the planks, and we’re normally provided with photographic evidence. And then, we will do a little review and see how we got on. And we’ll write that up in a blog. So we’ll make sure that we include all your links. And we’ll put it all in the blog. And we’ll let you know how we got on. But I like the idea of a double challenge of doing the earthing as well as the planks. So that’s very cool. And thank you for your time.
Russ: Again, all of this has been incredibly intriguing. And I think there’s just this collective knowledge of quantifying self, understanding what you’re putting into your body. And how to get the bad stuff out of your body. I’m curious when you talk about longevity because weight training over time, all those things, take a toll on you. You talked about stem cell and doing those things what are some takeaways for longevity that the audience can take with them? That you think is a practice that we just need to apply these basics to get going. I like to always narrow down our audience members that are just getting started. And what are some of the things you’d want to leave our audience with around? What are the things that will help with longevity? What are a couple of things you to start today to get thinking about, how to live longer and healthier?
Kris: Well, number one is one of the biggest changes that I made in 2016 is I went completely organic, grass -fed wild meat and elimination of any vegetable oils. And I got away from the fun foods, processed foods and I eliminated sugars from my diet. Of course, you’re going to get sugar in a form of berries or strawberries or something like that. But that’s going to be the number one change that I’d I suggest to people. But keep in mind I’m into weight training. I am advanced. I eat a lot of proteins. Now, is that going to be the healthiest? Well, maybe not! But I utilize a lot of my proteins and I balance my methionine ratio by supplementing with glycine or eating organ meats, just to make sure that I have that balance. Because I know that if I eat too much muscle meat, which is going to be a lot of methionine is not going to be good for my aging process. So, you just got to look at it as a balance. Somebody goes and has a drink of vodka, and maybe have some bitters, maybe take a limit on it. Have some fun, but balance it.
Russ: Yeah. I think, those are great things. Diet changes are one of the things that Sarah and I have talked about a few months ago. I did that and it’s been a life changer. And I think the balancing piece and the earthy piece, I’m excited to share the success and failures that will be me in the earthing piece.
Kris: Yeah. People can tag me in their pictures. That’d be great. I’ll pop in and hopefully throw some encouragement their way.
Sarah: Yeah. That would be cool. Do the plank Earth challenge? That’d be cool. Yes. Cool. Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been super cool. And it was lovely to see you. I hope I will get to see you in real life soon.
Kris: And thank you so much. I appreciate you both.
🚨7 Day Challenge🚨
Russ: Sarah. Oh, my God. I mean, how are you?
Sarah: I’m very good. Thank you, Russ.
Russ: Good. You look like you’ve been running around traveling the world.
Sarah: Yes, of course I’m doing my sunrise walking. It’s a lot easier here in the sunshine to get motivated to get up and see the sunrise. So yeah, that’s very cool.
Sarah: I’m good. Actually, I’m feeling quite strong. I actually really enjoyed Kris’s challenge because wherever I go and do my planking, I’ve been on the beach and all over the place. People have been joining in, doing it with me. And yeah, it was good fun.
Russ: Yeah. I mean, It’s called The challenge for a reason.
Sarah: Yeah. It a bit difficult. I mean, I have been doing push-ups and things as part of my routine. So, to have this challenge, it was a good one. How much are you really doing it? Are you really doing it on a regular basis? Doing it outside of course, is another level too!
Russ: I wish we had before and after pictures of when we started this podcast. And then today because I think, I look the same. I don’t think I’m fulfilling my requirement of actually getting bio hacked.
Sarah: We’re going to have to step it up a bit, Russ. I think.
Russ: They do. Yeah, I’m getting hacked by life, not bio hack.
Sarah: Alright. Did you do the plank?
Russ: I did. I’m sore which is just another example of that I shouldn’t be sore from doing basic planks. But I see Kris... I mean, he’s walking, probably 82 miles a day on this treadmill. And I’m not doing that. I’m standing at least. Today, I’m sitting. But I usually stand while I’m meeting.
Sarah: Yeah! Well, of course. He’s glowing example, isn’t he? He has no excuses. He took a break from his training regime which is obviously pretty intense. But he didn’t really take a break because the whole time he was running on his treadmill. So, there you go. It can be done. People who say, Well, I’ve got a sedentary job. It’s more difficult. There are ways around it.
Russ: There are! Well, we’re finding ways around it. And that’s the whole thing here. It is finding ways to keep yourself moving and longevity. We had one of our podcast guests told us, this is the path to 100. If I feel my age, and I know that the degradations are coming in, I got to do something about this. Yeah, I want to live to be 100 but not degrading.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly. You want to have another 50 good years. You don’t want to live 100 in a decrepit state. And I think, that’s what it’s all about. It’s about the quality of your life going forward.
Russ: That’s right!
Sarah: Now, you can probably live to 100 if you’re on all these ventilators, and you take a lot of drugs, but what’s the quality of your life going to be like?’
Russ: That’s right. It’s totally true. And from where we can find Kris? Do we have on the top of our minds here where we can find him on social media.
Sarah: If you type in Kris Gethin, I think you’re going to find him. He really is very good at put in his social media out there, putting courses together. He’s on a lot of podcasts. He’s a really cool guy.
Russ: He really is! I think, he’s @krisgethin. It is his Instagram handle. He’s the CEO of Kaged.
Sarah and Russ get planked!
Links for Kris Gethin